i can see an underlying discord surfacing in the women of mad men.
am i crazy?
__________________

Not crazy at all.  Some of the women in the office are either "older", like Joan, talented, like Peggy, or adventurous and college-educated, like Don's secretary.  Of course the women are frustrated.  The closest this office will come to a revolt is probably Peggy's crossover and rise through the ranks, though. 

Women had a difficult time being accepted in the workplace until the mid 80s.  It really did take that long to flush out a lot of the mind-set that permeates this show.  It's difficult to imagine now, like segregation, to people who weren't raised in the times, but it was a very real issue then.

touche! I was raised in a diffrent generation so im a little naive.
__________________

I was all of 10 years old in 1962. By the time I graduated from high school in 1969--all hell had broken lose in society.  I attended an all girls parochial high school and there were even rumblings of "women's lib" coming to the surface then.  We were no longer told that the best we could expect was a job being a secretary.  We were actually in college prep preparing for a world where women could be whatever they desired--not just clerks and secretaries.  So  to paraphrase "the times they were a'changing".  Can't wait to see all of these sociatial changes explored on "Mad Men"!

I LOVED THAT PART DURING LAST WEEKS EPISODE WHEN THE NEIGHBOR TOLD BETTY THAT THE MOST DIFFICULT PART OF BEING SEPERATED WAS REALIZING THAT SHE WAS THE BOSS OF THE HOUSEHOLD. WHEN DID THE FEMININE MYSTIQUE COME OUT? SORRY FOR THE CAPS
__________________

Joanie:   Betty Friedan published the book in February 1963 and she was critized for only addressing white middle class suburban woman and the lack of fulfillment in their lives.  I believe outside of that cohort, roles for women were not so constricted.  I often watch old television shows like "The Jackie Gleason show" and I don't get that Alice and Trixie felt  trapped or lacked an identity apart from Ralph and Ed!! IMHO!!

great topic! just a few thoughts, remember that we are in the world of advertising here. even though its 1962, the ad world has always been considered very progressive. just look at the show, kinsey has a black girlfriend who visted the office with little consequence, kurt "came out" and peggy is advancing. sure they are cruel behind closed doors, but ad agencies pride themselves on being "modern" at least the "creatively driven" agencies. opportunities are given to women on madison avenue because it's modern to do so. i think we will see more power asserted by the women in this show and it'll be interesting to watch!

Still, Joan was shut out of the media job she was doing so well. That was a moment that was so painfully indicative of the age. It wasn't a job that required great skill or education, but Joan brought the kind of insight to it that would be highly valued in any office. Nonetheless she was summarily brushed off when they found a man to replace her.

That's what I love about this show. The subtlety of that moment and Joan's reaction to it spoke volumes.

My wife also felt sorry for Joan. 

I didn’t, she prided herself on NOT being like a man and getting involved with their work.  She runs the women of the office and looked down her nose at Peggy for wanting to work  “why would you want to work?”  How could he have known that she was serious and was looking for a career move?  She’s the top hussy in the office because she works it (for better or for worse) Joan was over looked because no one expected Red to want that job.

I agree with what you said about Joan. She played it wrong. But how was a woman supposed to play it? Peggy's rise seemed to happen as a fluke.

Joan learned that the only way to gain power (I'm guessing she's the office manager?) in an office full of men is to be sexy (but not too revealing), tight lipped and try to speak their language. She probably started out in the secretarial pool and worked her way up to whatever she is. Until Peggy came around, she was the most powerful woman in the office.

Her comments to Peggy about "why would you want to work" may have been to make herself feel better about hitting the glass ceiling... or having a non-challening job. It's pretty clear she wanted to work when she was temping in the media department.

Peggy will be successful. I think we all anticipate that. But she's the exception, not the rule. And she didn't earn it the way it seemed like you were supposed to earn it. I think Joan wanted the same kind of success and was trying the only way she knew how. Even in the 20-some years I've been in business, the way to earn more power and/or the respect of the men in charge is not intuitive for the normal woman. We certainly can't earn it by mimicking men, because there are double standards. If the path isn't even clear today, how was it supposed to be clear for Joan?

So while I agree with everything you said, I think there's also another way to look at it. The only advice given out on this show was by Jimmy's wife who told Peggy to call Don "Don", instead of Mr. Draper. That would have never occurred to her on her own. Back then, women had a "place" and operating outside of that place was counter-intuitive.

During the party in Brooklyn, someone introduced Joan as a secretary, and she quietly corrected him, "Office Manager.

(JAMES) "JOAN WAS OVERLOOKED BECAUSE NO ONE EXPECTED RED TO WANT THAT JOB."

Joan getting the job permanently was not even on anyone's radar screen.  She was just a convenient person to give it to as a stop-gap measure until a "real" person was hired.

Joan was born about 1930 and had as her goal getting married.  At 31, she's reaching the desperation age.  And to land a doctor ... WOW!  (Even though he's turned out to be a horrible "catch.")

I worked at a large company (Procter & Gamble) from the late 60s on.  Even though it was not an advertising agency, the same culture was prevalent.  I was part of the "revolution" who banded together and wore pants to the office.  Shortly thereafter, a memo was circulated stating that the "derrier" had to be covered by the top.

By that time, married women "girls" were permitted to keep their jobs, but if they got pregnant, were expected to quit no later than the seventh month.

Times have changed, but what went on back then is truly like science fiction to today's employees.  I remember someone once saying to me, "I NEVER would have put up with that!!"  "Oh yeah?"  I replied.

My college advertising teacher was a veteran of P&G. Phillip Ward Burton. He was a legend and it was an honor to study with him. He wrote a book called Which Ad Pulled Best that was used quite widely in colleges back in the 80s.

While my comment does not have to do with working in the advertising field, it will still show how women in the 60's were defined.  In 1960 my  mother (now 73) was an airline stewardess.  When she opted to marry my father she had to resign from the airlines.  Back then being an airline stewardess was an elite position and only single women who spoke two languages could become one.  My oh my how times have changed.

Before I got married I remember my mother telling me, "You're reeling him in, but you haven't got him hooked" after a disagreement. As I look back, I really didn't want to get married.  I just didn't know what else to do.  All my friends were getting married.  And I have always hated that phrase.

Going to college wasn't an option for working class me.  That is until the 1970's.

I think you're right Joane
That is why I like the show
I shows how it was then
I notice there is dissatisfaction on the part of some women in the office
I think the men in some cases treat the women badly there, and by extension in society  I think that is driving change but I don't think that is the only driver

A related point is
In our culture and I think other too
We define ourselves (now men and women) by our jobs our positions

So we devote ourselves by what we thing will give us greater Status

Family is important.how we contribute to our community is important , what we do for others too

Everyone need to work but I think our priorities are off

Interesting comments all around.

My mother, now 83, lived through the era -
and hated how women were treated.

I, now 52, grew up with increasing freedom
and ever-wider and greater expectations for women.
My mom said she wished so much that *she'd* been born in the 1950s - or later - in order to have the opportunities her daughters had.

My son, now 26, can't believe that women were EVER
treated as poorly as is clearly and honestly shown on MadMen or described by his grandmother.

And many of the female students who worked in my office during the past few years have simply, blithely taken for granted any and every opportunity
that comes their way.  They're the ones who defiantly say "We are NOT feminists."

But the era on the TV screen was not so long ago. At all.

*jumps up on soapbox*



Unfortunately, there's a big difference between public policy and private  individual behavior.  As much as public policy has tried to move society forward on issues of gender and race, there is still a lot of private behavior that reflects an attitude that the changes in public policy are aberrations instead of evolution.  Sorry to say, many misogynists and racists still hold positions of power.  Yes, the wider culture is changing but it is important to be mindful and vigilant.

*jumps down*

I'm glad to see this topic discussed and to hear the views of some who have had to live through that.

My mother was growing up in that time and her teachers used to joke and call her by a man's name because she was the best in her math class.  She was in college by the end of the 60's and ended up with a degree in mechanical engineering.  Watching this show and knowing its portrayal of the times is considered relatively accurate is eye-opening... I think you are all right when you say that young women today (myself included) don't realize how far we've come in the past 50 years.  It helps me understand the type of sexism (let alone racism) my mother must have lived through in such a male-dominated field.  (She said, I don't need to watch that show - I remember it!)  And even though I've heard her stories, it's hard to even imagine what my grandmother went through.  The sad thing is: the popular attitudes in the United States just 50 years ago is nothing compared to the mistreatment of women in many countries around the world today...

First of all - belvedere, kudos to your mom! I too am in a related field but have seen women being marginalized in these areas even when I was in college (late '80's, early '90's). I cannot even imagine what it must have been like to major in a math-related field in the '60's!

On the surface, the elegant clothing, the graceful physical movements of the women, the thoughtful courtesies men pay them, the protective attitudes of (most) men towards women seem so charming. But scratch the surface and you see the underlying contempt for women, the lack of power adversely influencing relationships between women, etc.

CTD...

And the very limited economic power, and outlet for creative/ intellectual talents available to women, of course!!

Does anyone NOT know a woman who has slept her way to a better-than-deserved position (no pun intended)? I'm 54, and it's still prevalent. Sadly, things haven't changed that much from the '70s, no matter what laws have been passed.